GUEST POST
This is a guest post from a new contributor Ed Simpson
Ed contacted us to request that we post his response to another guest post that previously appeared on our blog entitled 'An Anus Horeebliss'.
Whilst we don't necessarily agree with all of the content of this article, we are happy to feature an alternative point of view.
This is the opening paragraph from a post by a contributor to the Loyalists Against Democracy blog:
“December 3rd 2013 signals the first anniversary of the restrictions placed on the flying of the Union flag at Belfast City Hall, a decision so incredibly benign that the overblown reaction to it could only spring from a place as barking mad as Northern Ireland.”
You can read the rest of the post here and it’s worth a read but, I generally think it’s misguided and ignorant. I could go through it line by line but I think I’ll concentrate on this first paragraph because it is, like much of the content LAD produce (though they didn’t produce this), a good example of the attitude that pervades their work.
They refer to the decision to restrict the flying of the Union Flag to designated days as ‘so incredibly benign.’ To whom is it benign? All the evidence suggests that it was far from benign.
It wasn’t benign to the Loyalist community. Not in the least. As much as people like to apportion blame to the DUP and the UUP for stirring up trouble (and they certainly must take some of the blame), it’s incredibly arrogant to suggest that Loyalists were a) ignorant of the planned vote and b) needed the DUP & the UUP to tell them how much to be upset about it.
It wasn’t benign to the Nationalist/Republican community. Sinn Fein – who LAD quite sincerely claim were defeated on the night – were rumoured to have had a celebration party after the vote. An Phoblacht recorded the flag coming down – keen to capture the significant moment. SF Council Leader at the time, Jim McVeigh said:
“Perhaps more than any other, this symbolises the process of change taking place across the city of Belfast and within the City Hall. Sinn Fein has become the biggest party across Belfast and we have used that strength to push ahead with the equality agenda. This decision is a milestone. This is part of our strategy to make City Hall a City Hall for everyone and every tradition, not least the republican and nationalist tradition.”
Republicans and Nationalists speaking after the flag was taken down talked of how important it was that the city was a shared space for all and that an inequality had been addressed.
That’s not the markings of a benign decision, is it? In fact, is it really even benign to LAD when it seems to be their key reason for marking out the pro-choice, pro-equal marriage PUP as a regressive party? Yes, they are right to point out the change in tune from the PUP over their position on the flag and hold them to account for it. They may well decide that it casts doubts on the PUP claim as a progressive party. But if that’s the case, it’s not really a benign issue is it?
Regardless of whether it was actually benign or not, the attitude that others should see it as benign is what is unsettling. This and other such attitudes – telling Jamie Bryson to get a job – are what I refer to as a ‘middle class attitude.’ An attitude of ‘those beneath me are the problem and the way they stop being a problem is to be like me.’
Why call it a middle class attitude? Because it is most often presented by people who are sitting in a position of relative privilege. The phrase ‘Get a Job’ is almost only ever said by those who are lucky enough to actually have a job. Those desperate for work would never suggest getting a job as an easy solution to a problem. In this climate, it’s not the class you were born into that is relevant, but your circumstances. Having a job and qualifications are pretty much all you need to be in that position of privilege.
That’s not to say LAD are middle class – I have no idea who they are so couldn’t possibly label them as such – but their attitudes certainly are.
I understand that it’s not easy these days to assign class to people and in many ways that’s a good thing, but we’re kidding ourselves if we pretend class groups don’t exist and there’s undeniably a class group that thinks itself superior to Loyalism and the majority of Loyalists. It’s plain to see in the mocking of poor grammar and spelling. In the mocking of the clothes people wear. In the mocking of the accents people talk with. That class group doesn’t need to be made up of people in similar socio-economic circumstances; they just need to display the same attitudes.
To be absolutely clear: there is nothing wrong with being middle class, working class or even upper class, it’s the attitudes I take exception to.
My issue is that I think those attitudes are detrimental to society. We won’t get anywhere by alienating people. We need to make people feel equal within society, people need to know that what’s important to them is for them to decide and for us to respect, with the obvious caveat that it shouldn’t be detrimental for others. There’s no doubt that the approach by some factors in Loyalism aren’t meeting that criteria and it’s right that they’re criticised, but that criticism needs to be measured and it needs to offer solutions beyond telling them to ‘wise up’.
LAD will say, and have said, that that is not their responsibility and so be it. But they shouldn’t condemn others for trying. They have said on occasions that some of the behaviour and actions of some who claim to represent Loyalism would have David Irvine spinning in his grave. They might well do, but I’d wager he’d have a bigger problem with the way LAD conduct themselves.
I didn’t want this to be an attack piece on LAD – I’m not immune to their humour, and it’s right that the likes of Jamie Bryson and Willie Frazer are held up as the backward and dangerous idiots that they are, but for all the good LAD can do on that particular score, it is undone by the way they apply that same approach to anyone who disagrees with their view on things.
We like to try and pretend our problems are unique in Northern Ireland but that’s self-indulgent nonsense. Our problems are rooted in class warfare, as are most countries, and they’re best addressed by attacking the systems that perpetuate them – the fallacy of Grammar school social mobility, being one – not the people who suffer under it.
For the record, I pretty much agree with LAD on the fact that the flag not being flown every day doesn’t represent an attack on the civil rights of Loyalists. I don’t support the reasons for the ‘civil rights’ camp at Twaddell, though I do support their right to protest. The flag protests are not the cause of our problems, they are a symptom and we will never get anywhere by attacking the symptoms, while ignoring the underlying causes.
I’m glad LAD exists. Satire and parody are important, provided the right targets are engaged. Too often though, I feel that LAD have the wrong targets in their sights (though they’re bang on the money with Poots) and while the PUP may be an easy target, I don’t see anyone else trying to bring Loyalists along the right path.
An interesting read but fundamentally flawed. Ed's view of things is very much of polarised politics. The decision was very much benign to those of us who belong to the ever-growing camp who would designate as neither unionist or republican, loyalist or nationalist.
ReplyDeleteThat is not to say that we should discount the views and feelings of others, but we also shouldn't be held to ransom. The reason the likes of NI21 are gaining traction is because they've cottoned on to this. They are liberals, like Ed, but with some balls. They realise that the previous political lexicon has been sullied. This is evident in their continued use of terminology such as ‘pro-union’ rather than unionist.
It’s clear that Ed has the best intentions but ultimately this is is drivel. His criticism of LAD is ironic given that he seems happy enough to perpetuate a notion that the middle-class are snobs. The entire article reads like a great big (well-educated) flegger whinge about themmuns and usuns.
If I can unapologetically say what a lot of people think: Many working class people have an absolute contempt and disdain for middle classes and aspiration. For too many in the working classes there exists a cult of failure. That needs addressed. As does the associated phenomenon that says you can't criticize the working class, less you be called "elitist". I will not apologise for speaking plain English.
ReplyDeleteEd argues well, even if I don't agree with everything he says. However, does he really think that if Peter Robinson hadn't lost his seat to the Alliance Party in East Belfast that the DUP would have distributed 40,000 leaflets across East Belfast and brought people out onto the streets to protest Belfast City Hall adopting a flag-flying policy the same as Lancaster, Barking & Dagenham, and the British government in Whitehall? And it is totally disingenuous to pretend that the PUP has not been stoking this for its own political ends, in the same fashion that the DUP and UUP ignited the phoney crisis.
ReplyDelete"Sinn Féin were rumoured to have had a party?" Rumoured by whom? If you know anything about that miserable bunch you'd know they don't really do 'parties'. If you read the motion that Belfast City Council passed, Sinn Féin backed a motion affirming British sovereignty over Northern Ireland! This was a compromise, but ultimately a victory for unionism: yet another recognition of Northern Ireland as part of the UK, and Sinn Féin support for the British government's official flag-flying policy!
But yet again, elements of loyalism are too blinded by bigotry and stupidity to see that they are winning the big picture, and yet every time never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity to recognize that.
"Having a job and qualifications are pretty much all you need to be in that position of privilege."
ReplyDeleteThis position of privilege has been most often earned by hard work. Jobs and qualifications don't just fall into your basket. The phrases "get a job" and "wise up" are perfectly valid arguments. Northern Ireland has been affected by the global economical depression, that is true, but it is no Greece. NI does not suffer from 25% unemployment rate. It simply requires work and effort to get that 'privilege' of a job.
As much as I don't like calling something that has been obtained by hard work 'a privilege', I do agree that the source of the problem can be located in under-privileged upbringing. The type of schooling, the influence of the churches, and the cynical politicians who support the status quo because it is the only reality in which they can count on getting votes are issues to be addressed. But don't go around saying that someone who has invested in their future by hard work and struggle is 'privileged'. No, the work force is not privileged today. People struggle and fear the morrow, they lack security and slave for minimal wages. There's nothing privileged in that.
@Ian. It certainly may have been benign to many, but I didn't claim it wasn't. I pointed out that it wasn't benign to some, and that the original article seemed strongly to imply that it should have been. I didn't say the middle class were snobs. I'm not sure how much clearer I could be on that.
ReplyDelete@Brian. I have no issue with the middle classes. As I said, I'm not even sure you can define middle class anymore. I have an issue with the attitude that can usually only be expressed when you have the privilege that those beneath you do. It's just easy to use the phraseology of middle and working class.
Actually Ed, you said it on Twitter. "Get a Job = middle class snobbery".
DeleteNo wonder you spent so much time trying to rationalise your class-based insults in this article, you were trying to convince yourself, not the reader.
https://twitter.com/EdSimpsonNI/status/402792782080655362
Ed obviously does not like LAD's use of the word benign. I believe that it was used because flying the Union flag on designated days on government buildings was not turned into civil unrest anywhere else in the UK, of course we aren't like anywhere else in the UK because unlike the English and their designated days as ruled by the Queen's household we are better and more proud to be British.
ReplyDeleteAnywhere else it would be a benign vote but here we look for things to take offense at so I'd have to agree with Ed that in Belfast it was not a benign decision and I agree with LAD that we are barking mad.
Only 5% of people in NI have lived in a foreign country, the folk of Ulster really do need to get out more and quit being so insular, Our problems here are so ridiculous, we have it so good and so easy here compared to other places who don't get their healthcare, housing and band uniforms paid for by the government or EU funding for "culture." If we get evicted NIHE will house us, if we get fired the DHSS will pay us, do we appreciate all of this? Go ask a flegger.
In all my years no one ever mentioned the Union flag flying over the city hall, it wasn't precious to anyone until they couldn't have it, how childish can you get? The worse thing was that it wasn't even being removed, it's the Queen's wish which then spawned the traitor protests who knew better than the owner of said flag.
No one should tell Jamie Bryson to get a job, why should he work when no one else is working?
There are many middle class views on LAD, as there are working and lower class views too. I'm sorry to inform everyone but going to university isn't middle class, in the US thats called 'normal.' Grammar schools ..... I know people who went to Grammar schools and I don't think they feel so elite as they are wipe arses in the rest homes as they are doing. We have a forelock tugging culture here which really needs to go, also a misplaced sense of superiority by people who respect no one.
Telling someone like Bryson to "get a job" is merely a way of saying "wise up, you aren't as great as you think you are" many people need to remember this but so much offense and disrespect is allowed here and politicians are allowed to not do their job. Could Bryson do a better job with his lack of everything? If the PUP were in power would they just enable their UVF friends to get a bigger piece of the cake?
We need politicians to serve 'all' of the people, not just their tribe and to be aware that they will be called on it if they screw up.
LAD is one of the most important things to have happened in Northern Ireland in decades, being online shows the world that the people of 'northern' Ireland and not just the south actually do have a sense of humour and are not boring political dry shites as others I could name are. LAD has struck a nerve with the non-brick throwing people of Northern Ireland that they can relate to.
In the scheme of things LAD is small potatoes, but in the small pond of Northern Ireland they can make a difference, they just need to remind everyone from time to time that they are against all forms of sectarianism from everyone.
@Judyta You may want to re-read: I said relative privilege.
ReplyDelete@Ed You may want to re-read in order to see the quotation from yourself at the top of my post.
Delete@Ed: You may want to re-read in order to see the quotation from yourself in the first line of my post.
DeleteThe real problem is that politics are complex: anywhere. We have our own peculiar Ulster complexities, and different viewpoints almost as individual as each member of society. What politicians try to do is stick us into camps: themmuns and usuns, and OUR politicians won't accept any change to these perceptions or they'll see the very reason for their party vanish before their eyes!
ReplyDeleteLAD provide me with much-sought after mirth and hilarity in the midst of the madness I see all around me. I HAVE travelled, and wish to leave this 'green & pleasant land' for pastures where 'pleasant' is extended to political attitudes. Trying to categorise the 'attitude' (I notice how often you use the singular, Ed) of LAD as... anything, is actually another part of the problem. There are many comments on LAD from followers that I agree with, and many I don't. I don't perceive any such 'attitude' on its pages other than an agreement among those of us (most likely the majority but hard to tell with all the politicians stirring up the blood of the violent minority) who NEED to have a good laugh, and recognise that certain bigoted individuals just set themselves up for target practice by all of us. WE (if I can speak collectively after stating that we are all individuals - HA!) simply see ourselves as normal, thinking, intelligent, and capable of seeing another point of view.
You argue eloquently, but you fall into the trap of tarring with a brush too - I am as different from the next contributor/ follower/ spectator of LAD. I am an evangelical Protestant, from a working class unionist background, who wonders if the partition of Ireland was ever a good idea; who is completely pro-life, but on the fence on gay marriage (yes, it IS very sharp!) yet decidedly left-wing in almost all my other political views. I am sure if others out there were honest about what they really believed, we'd see such individuality. However, experience tells me that the 'herd mentality' rules most people and they will flock to the side that they perceive they belong to, and repeat the bleats and baas of their peers. You sound educated, Ed, and you make some very valid points, but don't fall into the camp of those who scoff at others who sound middle class, please, or you'll be doing the same old thing over again.
I often remember the classic scene in 'The Life of Brian':
CROWD (in loud unison): "Yes, we can all think for ourselves. We are all individuals!"
....... 'I'm not!'
And I should also state that have always been, and always will be working class! And proud of it LOL.
ReplyDeleteEd, it almost strikes me as a straw man argument to suggest that this is a class issue. I know many people from both working class and loyalist areas who don't get on like those we've seen in the flag protests and marches over the last year or so.
ReplyDeleteTo suggest that certain "grammar, punctuation and clothing" is a signature of the working class in general, rather than exclusively the type of dolts we see at these protests is a questionable statement in itself.
Ed, to suggest that this is a class issue almost seems like a straw man argument in itself. I know many people of working class backgrounds from loyalist areas who don't get on like what we've seen in the flag protests and marches over the past year.
ReplyDeleteTo suggest that things like certain "grammar, punctuation and clothing" is a mark of the working class in general rather than exclusively these dolts who attend these sorts of protests, is a questionable statement in itself.
Noone's mocking the working class. You can be from a working class background and not get on like what we've seen.
Not a lot to add, some very eloquent replies echoing my own views closely. I was supposed to reply earlier, but got waylaid....
ReplyDelete"a decision so incredibly benign that the overblown reaction to it could only spring from a place as barking mad as Northern Ireland." - Totally agree with this. There are many many things we working class people SHOULD be protesting (things which actually affect our lives such as education fees, rising prices, stagnating wages etc), but designated days is SO far down the list that it drops off the bottom.
"it’s incredibly arrogant to suggest that Loyalists were a) ignorant of the planned vote and b) needed the DUP & the UUP to tell them how much to be upset about it." - Yet that's exactly how it went down. In public consultations beforehand, almost nobody turned up. And I mean almost nobody. Because nobody actually cared that much. Billy Hutchinson of the PUP was initially *for* designated days. Various Unionist controlled councils had designated days already. It really was non-news, this shift from all-year-round to designated days, to emulate so many places on the mainland if you will. But then Naomi Long had East Belfast. How very dare she, that's a DUP seat! How to rile people up to help get her out? I know, blame the SF/SDLP insistence on removing the flag totally on the Alliance. Sure, the Alliance ensured that SF/SDLP didn't get their way, assured the British flag flew as often as the mainland, but the people are so easy to manipulate!
So well done DUP. This is ALL on you.
As for Sinn Fein having a party? Who cares? Who cares what drivel they wrote to sell this pup to their people? You cannot base your success on how much failure the other side experiences, that's for children. And to bring that up as some sort of valid point? Just NO Ed.. And stop reading An Phoblacht - it's a fucking rag.
"telling Jamie Bryson to get a job" - he should get a job. Or clean shit off the streets while getting housing benefit and dole money for fags.
"middle class attitude." - not even worth replying. beyond saying you spend so much time trying to explain yourself here that you end up your own arse.
"Too often though, I feel that LAD have the wrong targets in their sights (though they’re bang on the money with Poots) and while the PUP may be an easy target, I don’t see anyone else trying to bring Loyalists along the right path." - then you have to go end on this almost redeeming yourself.... PUP seems to have a fair range of viewpoints within its church - some of them are abhorrent, and some of them are very progressive. But they're still better than the typical DUP/UUP alternative.
@Dave I didn't "suggest that certain "grammar, punctuation and clothing" is a signature of the working class". You may want to re-read. I also didn't accuse anyone of mocking a particular class. I said the attitudes on display could be described as a middle class attitude and then explicitly explained that it doesn't mean those displaying them are middle class themselves.
ReplyDelete@Belfast Biker It is the height of arrogance to tell people what they should be concerned about and even more so to assume that people can't care about more than one thing at a time. Public consultations rarely get a great response, yet when a controversial decision is made and effected people take notice. That's not unique to this issue so I'm not sure what you're point is.
I'm also not sure where you are going with the talk of the DUP and UUP strategy. They clearly used the vote for their own political ends and I didn't argue otherwise.
But as you clearly do think it's perfectly fine to tell someone to 'get a job' in spite of not knowing any detail of his personal circumstances - do you know what jobs he has applied for? - you clearly aren't going to be that interested in examining the purpose of the post.
"do you know what jobs he has applied for?"
Delete4 this week, all clerical, 3 last week, 2 clerical, 1 other in.. wait... I don't care. Fact remains, he clearly has too much time on his hands and should get a job, even if only to not spew nonsense 8 hours a day.
So LAD's point stands - get a fecking job Bryson.
"do you know what jobs he has applied for?"
DeleteTaxi Dispatcher? Not sure if he's on the books though, or if it's voluntary. Please don't tell me Ed that you believe someone does such a job without a wee backhander?
One of the problems with satire is that it does seem to have a middle class base in many cases so tough, live with it if it has.
ReplyDeleteOne of the heartening things here is that IF it is middle class then in so many ways GOOD.
The desertion of the middle classes from politics has been an alarming aspect of NI political doings for the last long number of years. It has allowed the more intolerant, in some cases brutal, attitudes to be the leading ones for the working classes and as a person who has come from a working class background I deplore such a disappointing continuing downward development.
So what not all the LAD targets are well thought out and not everything is funny but the real strength is that it is happening at all. And it won't go away you know.
What is constantly being exposed is the really screwed up place that Northern Ireland is with politics constantly at the pre-playschool level where noise takes the place of speech and notions of rational thought or behaviour are concepts yet to be understood in even the most general sense by the many.
LAD is getting it right more than it is getting it wrong and so what if it gets it wrong sometimes, that's what people do.
Hopefully it may yet get people to actually stop and think about if it is right what that should mean about what each person's response to what is happening and why, and what does it mean to each individual affected?
The views of LAD contributors (with which, by and large I agree) are ‘middle class’? I have qualifications – for which I worked my ass off. That makes me ‘posh’? I am self-employed and work my ass off and as far as I'm concerned, I'm working class. I have to confess that I find Ed's equation 'Laugh at the fleggers = Cherryvalley condescension' vaguely offensive. You don't have to be Protestant or Catholic, or posh or poor, or socialist or tory, or nationalist or unionist to identify a true dickhead as a true dickhead.
ReplyDeleteAlso, when I read the great majority of posts by fleggers and shinners, they have a common thread, which is that the writers have been failed, miserably, by our education system. But if fun is poked at those illiterates for being illiterate at the top of their voices, sorry Ed - they do ask for it. It’s not ‘middle class’ to be basically literate and numerate.
I do count myself privileged to have had the opportunity to get a good education. But then I had parents (working class!!) who believed in education and persuaded me of its value. And I was lucky to grow up in the days when education in Northern Ireland was streets ahead of the rest of the UK! But posh? Middle class? Sorry Ed, that’s pure bollocks!
There is no doubt that every time there is a fleg protest, with the peelers getting bricked and petrol bombed, fleggers have the Shinners laughing their collective tits off. One doesn’t have to be Machiavelli to see that the City Hall vote and the events leading up to it were a classic example of Shinner coat-trailing and Loyalist pavlovian reaction! Republican violence failed to make NI ungovernable, so wee Gerry and the lads try to recruit 'loyalists' to do the job for them.
It’s not ‘middle class’ to point out that in purely political terms, Shinners have all shades of Unionism totally chasing their own tails. But then, being top dog in Norn Iron politics is like being the least psychiatrically disturbed in an institution for the criminally insane.
The root problem is that so-called ‘loyalists’ no longer know what it means to be ‘British’. For most, it means ‘not Irish’, something entirely different! So can I offer a little advice on how to be truly ‘loyal’? No? Well sod you – here it is anyhow:
(1) fly the fleg on Belfast City Hall on the same occasions as it is flown on the Guildhall in London, seat of the Lord Mayor of the City of London – about as quintessential a British institution as you could hope to find;
(2) don’t stick up the Union Jack all over the place and then let the flegs rot on their flegpoles (just go to Tullycarnett and Ballybeen to see what I mean). How disrespectful to the Queen is that?
(3) don’t brick and petrol bomb Crown forces;
(4) show a suitable level of benevolent and detached disdain for your catholic neighbours. You’re British, so you’re above taking notice of that Romish mumbo-jumbo;
(5) vote for political parties, not sectarian hacks like the Pillocks on the Hillock. Nurture and support politicians who have some ability, unlike the current bunch with their economic and social awareness on the level of baboons on crystal meth. Have one party (or coalition) governing and assorted parties opposing, all elected on the basis of political policies. Force politics here to emulate the British Mother of Parliaments, not Mugabe’s Zimbabwe;
and finally,
(6) DON’T worry about the Irish Republic. Real British people on the mainland just ignore Ireland and, in any case, the thought of Irish unity scares the living shite out of Leinster House!!
Tickfadd er... something or other!